Following the stepping down of Sinn Féin’s health spokesperson, Brian Stanley TD, the party’s leader Mary Lou McDonald was interviewed on RTÉ Radio 1’s Morning Ireland show, hosted by presenter Mary Wilson, on Monday. A transcript of their conversation is detailed below.
The interview commences with a welcome from Mary Wilson, to which Mary Lou Mcdonald greets her warmly. Wilson promptly brings the conversation towards the recent resignation of Brian Stanley, describing him as one of the most prominent members of Sinn Féin and the chair of the Public Accounts Committee, representing the constituency of Laois-Offaly. She refers to a complaint that has been directed at Stanley to Ireland’s police service, An Garda Síochána.
Following this, Mary Lou McDonald asserts that she is unable to provide further details on the subject. She goes on to say that the party initiated an investigation in adherence to the party’s regulations once a complaint was raised against Stanley. This process, she mentions, was conducted over the summer and finalised in early October. McDonald emphasises that had the original complaint been of a criminal nature, they would have escalated the matter to An Garda Síochána immediately.
Regardless, she states that the complaint was not of such a nature and an investigation was pursued. She adds that an opposing claim was introduced during the course of the investigation. The preliminary process was concluded, recorded, and shared with both involved parties for commentary and confirmation, as per standard procedure. The parties were then expected to respond to these details.
The account was also sent to the chairperson of our disciplinary board, and I must mention, the disciplinary mechanism of Sinn Féin is monitored by a legally qualified barrister and is independent from the party. Once this was received by the disciplinary board chairperson, they sought additional legal counsel. Brian Stanley stepped down and the issues were then forwarded to the chair of the party. Out of an excess of caution, we directed these issues to the gardaí.
To make it unequivocal, I’m not able to determine whether the grievance or counter-claim qualifies for a criminal investigation. It’s beyond my remit. However, I am more comfortable knowing that both the grievance and counter-claim are now before the gardaí and they will take appropriate action.
MW: It seems rather complex, let’s delve in backward and then proceed forward. Could you note when exactly the grievance was lodged, and how it was lodged – was it made in person, or in written form? Who were the recipients?
MMcD: The complaint statement was admitted on 2nd August, and the procedure was initiated thereafter. Deputy Stanley was informed of the situation on 3rd August. Deputy Stanley dismissed the complaint.
MW: For the sake of clarity, could you indicate when you were informed about it?
MMcD: In early August, I was informed there was a complaint.
MW: So, a grievance is received on 2nd August. On 3rd August, Brian Stanley is informed. When were you notified?
MMcD: At that point, I was aware there was a complaint, but in accordance with rules and procedure, I was not privy to the nature of the complaint. It is crucial to the just proceeding and running of an inquiry on this scale that there is no trace of manipulation or influence. For this reason, as mentioned previously, our protocols are detached, and the disciplinary process is managed by a professional barrister.
MW: So, what were you told in particular?
Rewrite:
MMcD: I was informed that there was a grievance lodged concerning Brian Stanley. That’s all there was. The issue would be addressed as per the party rules and procedures…
MW: At that juncture, did you have any dialogue with Brian Stanley, specifically between the two of you?
MMcD: I have not conversed about the grievance with Brian Stanley at any point. We briefly touched on the matter where he mentioned that a complaint had arisen. I acknowledged this and mentioned that the procedures need to be followed. Apart from that, nothing else. It’s essential to understand, Mary, that we have a robust and fair system for handling such issues…
MW: I’d like to delve into that process…
MMcD: I’d be willing to discuss that. But let me underscore this – I owe no explanations to anyone for the fair, unbiased adherence to the party’s rules and standards, and this impacts all its members, be it an ordinary member or the chairman of the PAC [Public Accounts Committee].
MW: We will delve deeper into those too. Are you aware of the person who lodged this complaint? I believe the individual has been characterised as a loyal member of the party.
MMcD: The individual has been a loyal member of the party. However, I don’t personally know them, no.
MW: Is this individual part of the Dublin branch of the party, or within the Laois-Offaly constituency, can you specify?
MMcD: I can’t comment on that Mary, for one simple reason. The proceedings were ongoing. I am acutely aware, as I’ve maintained in all such processes, that when a complaint arises, it should be taken seriously, handled appropriately, and everyone’s rights should be respected and protected. Regrettably, in this situation, Deputy Stanley has stepped away from the proceedings.
We have a serious complaint, a counter-charge. It’s now in the hands of the gardaí, and it’s crucial that they proceed and establish whether or not an inquiry is necessary.”
MW: Could you explain how the composition of an inquiry panel is organised after a complaint is submitted, like it happened on August 2nd?
MMcD: Certainly. To carry out the process, a barrister leads an assembled panel comprising of two individuals who have had long affiliations with the party. This is a common practice. And the responsibility of managing the process falls under the mandate of the party chair.
MW: Is the appointed barrister also involved in the party?
MMcD: Yes, the barrister in question is a party member.
MW: You mentioned two senior party members. Are they elected representatives across Ireland, both Northern and Southern?
MMcD: No, they are not elected, they are merely party members.
MW: Are they based in different parts of Ireland? Northern, Southern perhaps?
MMcD: In this particular case, there was a representative from the North and one from the South, but the geography is not important. These are experienced and capable party members. When forming a panel, the focus isn’t on the geographical origin of the members.
MW: In this proceeding, are both the complainant and Brian Stanley summoned to appear before the panel?
MMcD: The initial phase is the enactment of the complaint via written forms, with the nature of the complaint being central. Subsequently, yes, the panel engages with both the complainant and the respondent.
MW: When was the preliminary finding issued at the conclusion of the process?
MMcD: When the panel convenes with the complainant or respondent, they may choose to have anyone they want to accompany them. For instance, Brian Stanley had with him a solicitor and a barrister, as he was entitled to. The procedure that I’ve just outlined to you concluded on October 4th. Subsequently, the initial findings report was drafted and disseminated to both parties in accordance with standard protocols.
MW: Did you also receive copies of these drafts?
MMcD: I’ve made it clear, several times now, that the entire procedure is completely independent of the party. Accessing that paperwork would be completely out of order for me. The first time I was apprised of the situation in full was when Brian Stanley stepped down on Saturday evening and I was briefed by the party’s chair.
MW: So, did this preliminary ruling on October 4 from the panel suggest that matters should go to An Garda Síochána?
MMcD: To be direct with you, no final suggestions came about, since the process hadn’t reached that point yet. Moreover, it wasn’t advised that the matters should be brought before An Garda Síochána.
MW: What information can you divulge regarding the ruling now?
MMcD: Truthfully, I can’t disclose anything concerning the verdicts at this time; Brian Stanley’s resignation interrupted the process. Hence, no final decision was made.
MW: Can you divulge when and under what conditions the decision to refer matters to An Garda Síochána was made?
MMcD: The preliminary and final reports were shown to both parties and the disciplinary committee’s lead, as I’ve previously mentioned. Legal counsel was then sought. Brian Stanley quit during this time, and it all landed in the lap of the party chair who subsequently briefed me. At that point, An Garda Síochána was referred.
MW: So, Brian Stanley quit this Sunday night, two days ago?
MMcD: That’s right. It was early Sunday afternoon when the referral was made.
MW: Was the choice yours?
MMcD: Indeed, I had a share in the making of the choice, and I am staunchly behind it. I would like to express two factors, Mary. To begin with, while I would rather be discussing housing, health, and childcare – all of which are vital to society – on your programme, there is an alternative. As the head of Sinn Féin, I am obliged to respond when concerns are raised about conduct or standards within our party. I do not hesitate to enforce our protocols in a just and unbiased way.
Furthermore, in view of caution, the referral to An Garda Síochána took place. I was discontented – unacceptable for the party to be burdened with a grave accusation and an equally critical counterclaim, leaving the process in a state of limbo. Closure is necessary…
MW: The sequence of events are such – it’s barely been three months since the initial grievance was lodged on the second of August and only now, after the resignation of Brian Stanley on Saturday night and before facing the media, has the decision been made to present a complaint to An Garda Síochána.
MMcD: Mary, as I have thoroughly explained the series of events to you – had the first complaint been criminal, it would have directly been the responsiblity of the gardaí. Sinn Féin would’ve been excluded.
The dispute gets lodged, and the inquiry process unfolds as I’ve explained, into September and October. With the advent of new data and evidences in the preliminary report, including a crucial counterclaim, additional recommendations were sought. As it turned out, Deputy Stanley decided to take a step back; a decision that was entirely his, not mine.
MW: Has the one lodging the complaint sought out An Garda Síochána?
MMcD: To the best of my knowledge, the complainant has not, but it clearly is within their right. Though, to my knowledge, they have not, but that decision lies entirely with them.
MW: I’m slightly bewildered as to why Sinn Féin chose to approach An Garda Síochána on a Sunday afternoon over a complaint, the nature of which remains unknown to us. It’s odd that you didn’t consider it a criminal matter when the investigation began back in August, but suddenly find it severe enough to warrant the attention of An Garda Síochána post Brian Stanley’s resignation two days ago.
MMcD: Mary, there’s been no sudden shift here. I want to remind you that this has been a gradual process starting from September and extending into October. To reiterate, the first complaint was non-criminal; had it been a criminal matter, it would have been taken to the gardaí immediately. As the investigation expanded in September and eventually concluded at the beginning of October, additional factors were incorporated. A severe counter-claim was made, which was added to the analysis before a preliminary report was contracted.
MW: I get that, but I’d like to know why Sinn Féin chose to take the matter to An Garda Síochána instead of the complainant.
MMcD: Either party involved has the freedom to approach the gardaí if they feel it necessary. I am only responsible for the decisions that I make.
MW: So, what prompted Sinn Féin to make that move?
MMcD: That’s because we were left with a complaint and a counter-claim, both of grave concern, within our political party. Deputy Stanley’s sudden departure abruptly ended the investigation, and we prefer that all aspects be concluded.
MW: You could have given a comprehensive statement about all the details in Leinster House tomorrow. It still remains somewhat unclear why your party approached An Garda Síochána on a Sunday afternoon following Brian Stanley’s resignation and prior to releasing your public statement.
MMcD: Honestly, Mary, I can’t see any complication in this situation at all.
MW: The complexities lie in your party’s decision to take the matter to An Garda Síochána and precisely what you provided them with.
MMcD: Repeatedly, I have mentioned that we have referred the issue at hand to An Garda Síochána out of extreme caution. We have treated every aspect that has come to light with careful consideration while ensuring that everyone’s rights are upheld. I assure you, Mary, that it would be extremely unjustified for me to review these matters publicly, either in the Dáil or elsewhere. I have no plans to do so.
MW: However, you’ve insisted that you’ve sought legal counsel at every turn, even involving a barrister as part of the investigation or council members. The moment it was evident that the matter had to be escalated to An Garda Síochána, shouldn’t you have halted proceedings and stated, ‘this cannot progress. The gardaí must carry out the investigation’? This could’ve been done earlier, in August or even September, instead of just yesterday.
MMcD: Mary, the process which insured all parties’ rights was concluded earlier this month, specifically on October 4th.
MW: If a political party is faced with an issue of concern or a potential criminal matter, isn’t the priority to refer it to law enforcement, in this instance, the gardaí? Yet, your party, the committee, did not follow this path.
MMcD: The party has forwarded the matter to An Garda Síochána. I was duly informed about these issues on Saturday night. To ensure the integrity of any independent inquiry in any establishment, it has to be just that – independent, rigorous, focused on uncovering facts and preserving everyone’s rights. This is how things work in Sinn Féin.
MW: Being the party leader, all responsibilities eventually rest upon you. This morning, you are the one defending this, yet you claim ignorance about the happenings. Doesn’t this raise the question as to whether you truly have control over your party?
MMcD: I hold the ultimate responsibility for this gathering, and I am resolute in enforcing the rules and procedures meticulously.
MW: So, were the rules and procedures not beneficial for you?
MMcD: Quite the opposite, their meticulous and unbiased implementation culminates with my authority… Once various issues reached my attention and after a comprehensive briefing on Saturday night, I firmly endorse the decision to direct these concerns to An Garda Síochána out of considerable precaution.
As a suggestion Mary, if such decisions weren’t made, in this interview today, you would undoubtedly have asked me the reason. Your question would have been perfectly justified.
MW: Isn’t there an uncertainty regarding the rules and procedures in Northern Ireland, involves Michael McMonagle, recommendations from the two Sinn Féin press officers, and whether the rules and procedures were followed or failed you?
MMcD: Certainly, and these two individuals who have independently committed a serious wrong no longer are our employees. They are no longer a part of the party. They bore the full brunt of their deed. We’re a large group, and just like any institution, we manage various unexpected challenges including human errors and failures.
MW: Mary Lou McDonald, You can’t compare yourself to a multinational corporation and if we persist with the McMonagle matter. The email from the British Heart Foundation directed to your HR department which as you would stress, serves as a central hub for all employment-related matters. That contact was made in August 2023. What was the HR department’s action on this information?
MMcD: Regretfully, it didn’t get handled as it should have been, which indeed was a serious oversight.
MW: Another shortcoming.
MMcD: Mary, I’ve spoken openly about all these incidents. I’m not in any form denying that there have been errors. They obviously did occur. But on a positive note, I have taken action. I have initiated a complete revamp of our entire procedures to make them more robust.
MMcD: The question arises on whether you were informed later regarding the happenings here and the establishment of regulations and protocols. These rules you claimed were introduced for the safeguarding of the party along with its members and to assure everything is properly regulated, but they were unsuccessful in Northern Ireland. It seems like there are deep queries about the incident particularly concerning the complaint from Brian Stanley and additionally, we’ve seen the departure of Patricia Ryan.
There might also be queries regarding a text message from Northern Ireland, could you provide us with additional information on this?
MMcD: With regard to each singular incident, you will see that measures were taken where misconduct took place, where behaviour dropped below standards. These rules are implemented, which even led to the resignation of Patricia Ryan, considering the election conventions are open and can sometimes face contention.
I realise that the existence of rules in Irish public or political life, their enforcement, and dealing with the repercussions might seem odd. That’s what is happening here, and I assert that our regulations and procedures apply uniformly and at times you will have to face the fallout from that, but such is the nature of politics and life.
MW: A member resignation, on account of alleged inappropriate text messages to a minor of 17 years, has occurred. This person has now withdrawn and the issue has been forwarded to the PSNI, could you enlighten us?
MMcD: I can confirm that the issue was promptly brought to our notice and our standard procedures were enacted, PSNI was briefed, social services were notified, every step was taken according to protocol. There were no legal charges or investigation, social services took charge of all the necessary safeguarding. Sinn Féin’s responsibility wasn’t to resolve the issue, but it was addressed appropriately. This is the standard of how I manage affairs.
MW: Has this issue been resolved now, or are there any additional steps following this incident?
MMcD: Yes, the issue at hand has reached its conclusion, a signature quality of how I conduct my affairs, Mary. No matter how daunting or tough a situation appears to be, I seek out fairness, transparency, adherence to, and reverence for the rules in place. If there are repercussions and outcomes, they must be accepted, regardless of one’s position or identity.
MW: Recently, Minister for Justice Helen McEntee stated that your party is not suitable for government as it lacks adequate structures. With this backdrop, is your continuous leadership also open to questioning?
MMcD: Our party is well-prepared and apt for government roles. We have efficient systems in place that ensure everyone is held accountable. From my point of view and my experiences thus far, there’s a dire need for more accountability in Ireland’s political course and parties.
Under my umbrella of authority, I can confirm we apply rules without any prejudice or fear, and I stand defiant on this score. Our practices are respectful and safeguard everyone’s rights. However, when someone’s actions don’t meet the standards or involving any misconduct, they must endure the consequences. I believe this quality is fundamental, not only for a leader but for a political party that aspires to govern.
MW: What about your ongoing Headship?
MMcD: I carry out my leadership responsibilities proactively, Mary. I will not be dissuaded or disrupted from performing my duty. I take immense pride in leading a party like ours along with all my team members.
Any mistakes, shortcomings, misconducts, or complaints are handled in an honest and candid manner. They are dealt with as per rules and conduct established procedures, and this is one of the principles of my leadership at Sinn Féin. While we are in command, this is how our party functions. Accountability is a paramount factor.
MW: Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, the Sinn Féin leader, we are grateful for your time on Morning Ireland today.
MMcD: I express my gratitude for having me, Mary. Thank you, indeed.
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